Posts by Cold Steel

3

Too young to get baptized?

by aposta-Z in

ok she appears to have some disability.

she has trouble getting in the kiddie pool.

she might be smaller because of that.

Cold Steel

Don't they have fonts in KINGDOM HALLS? I can't believe they would baptize someone in that getup!

Do they usually dunk three times or were the first two times a miss?

114

The Bible-- Full of Errors And Inconsistencies?

by Recovery in

i noticed in the "magic" thread many former jw's no longer adhere to the bible as the unerring and accurate word of god.

if you feel this way, can you please list any specific reasons/arguments as to why not.

this thread isn't for debating purposes, but simply for listing.

Cold Steel

There are numerous inconsistencies; however, I still believe it to be the word of God.

John says that no man has seen God at any time, yet the Old Testament tells us that Moses spoke with God face to face, and that seventy elders of Israel (with Joshua and a few others) saw God for an extended time...during a meal. Other prophets also claimed to see God. In fact, I don't think the Jewish or Christian religions would be worth a damn had no one seen God.

The inconsitencies aren't severe enough to queer the scriptures in my view, but no writing in which man had a part can be perfect.

25

Is Jehovah (GOD ) an intelligent being ? Or an incompetent

by smiddy in

according to the bible he communicated quite freely with humans, via dreams ,angels ,prophets ,etc.etc., in ancient times ,even up to, two thousand years ago , then he fell silent.then whatever, he was supposed to have said, has been manipulated , ( mis ) interpretrated ,twisted ,whatever, by imperfect human beings ,supposedly speaking in his name .during this last 2000 years.we now live in a time of unprecedented information technology , isn`t this the time to speak to the people of all the earth ?

using such technology ?

their has never been a time on earth when their have been so many people living at the one time and the means to communicate with all of them in a 24 hour period .

Cold Steel

How do you know God hasn’t revealed himself? And why do you suppose the people of the Earth would accept it? Also, why do you think that if he could reveal himself in the heavens, that he doesn’t?

According to the scriptures, the Lord will eventually reveal himself, but he’ll do it following an extended tribulation. The reason God doesn’t reveal himself in the heavens is because we’re still in a state of probation. The Lord tends to provide man with evidence of his dealings with mankind, but not proof. The reason he doesn’t provide proof is because man would condemn himself if he were provided proof and did not act on it. In short, there are people who would not repent and turn their lives around even if they had proof of his existence, and they would be under utter condemnation if that happened. God leaves evidence for man but not proof to spare those who otherwise would be under condemnation. It also would rob man of his free agency to see God revealed in his glory. He was willing to do it with the children of Israel, when he showed himself to 70 elders of Israel plus Joshua and a few others; however, had they subsequently rejected him, their condemnation would have been severe. There have, in fact, been cases in our day when God has reportedly revealed to man absolute proof of his existence, and there were witnesses, but they were made to understand the consequences should they ever deny their testimonies.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and he does not change the way he deals with man. But it often requires that man search for him.

I believe God has revealed himself in our day just as he did anciently. (If you want to know more, PM me.) But as for the Jehovah’s Witnesses, General Board members believe they have inspiration...but not revelations. But what’s the difference? They either are led by the Holy Spirit or they aren’t. Anciently, the church received guidance to vacate Jerusalem just before the Romans got there; and they received revelation on where to send missionaries throughout Asia and Greece/Rome. Their doctrines are indicative that they don’t receive assistance in formulating either their eschatology or their exegesis. Members don’t seem to have a limit in how much they’ll tolerate and even after numerous predictions regarding the end of the world, they tend to remain in the church.

25

Is Jehovah (GOD ) an intelligent being ? Or an incompetent

by smiddy in

according to the bible he communicated quite freely with humans, via dreams ,angels ,prophets ,etc.etc., in ancient times ,even up to, two thousand years ago , then he fell silent.then whatever, he was supposed to have said, has been manipulated , ( mis ) interpretrated ,twisted ,whatever, by imperfect human beings ,supposedly speaking in his name .during this last 2000 years.we now live in a time of unprecedented information technology , isn`t this the time to speak to the people of all the earth ?

using such technology ?

their has never been a time on earth when their have been so many people living at the one time and the means to communicate with all of them in a 24 hour period .

Cold Steel

This is a question that plagued me back during my high school years ago. I searched all kinds of churches looking for one that could answer it. That's when I first checked out the JWs...and they didn't fit the criteria in any way. In fact, there's only one that did and now, 40 years later, there's still only one that I can find, anyway.

The Catholic church has long sought for a way to reestablish communications with God, but has been stymied, as have other faiths. When the New World was discovered, many Protestant denominations fled here for religious freedom. After the American Revolution, they battled each other for converts placing faith on the fear of God and eternal damnation to support their various doctrines and dogmas. Instead of relying on Christ for authority as did the early Christians, they relied on the Bible. In 1945, with the discovery of the Nag Hammadi library, an ancient Christian library consisting of 52 books (many of whom were Gnostic). Even so, many quotations from the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas have been deemed to be authentic sayings of Jesus. One of these sayings includes this well known parable:

Jesus said: The kingdom of the Father is like a woman carrying a jar full of meal. While she was walking on a distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal poured out behind her on the road. She was unaware, she had not noticed the misfortune. When she came to her house, she put the jar down and found it empty.

As in other parables, the Kingdom of God is likened to a woman; and in this one the Kingdom’s contents were the spiritual gifts that defined the church Jesus created. After Christ’s death, the Kingdom fell into apostasy as prophesied (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3). By the time Rome seized control of the church, the spiritual gifts had been lost. There were no more healings, no more raising of the dead, no more visions, angels, revelation and baptism had changed.

But one reason I believe God to be real and to have spoken anciently is the profound and consistent messages that are delivered. From the law of Moses down to the Gospel taught by Christ, the scriptures, prophecy and teachings of the prophets not only are profound, but life changing. Christianity, as taught by the Master, completely eclipses Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and the other “isms” of the world, including the religious teachings of great civilizations such as the Aztecs, Mayans and Peruvians.

But why in our day, when we need Him most, does the great God of Heaven hide? When the Lord God will do nothing save He reveal it unto His servants the prophets are there no prophets? Jesus warned that there would be false prophets, but he never actually said there would be no prophets. But if He were to raise prophets in our day, where would He raise them? If a prophet knocked on the doors of Bethel or appeared before the Western Baptist Convention, what kind of reception would they get? Or if an apostle knocked on the doors of the National Council of Churches, what weight would his words carry?

Churches have hierarchies and creeds, and they cannot be easily cracked by outside claims. In fact, anyone claiming to be a prophet in today’s society would immediately be branded a kook. If I, now, here, claimed to be a prophet or apostle? What credence would I have? None. And what would a prophet have to do, today, for YOU to believe his or her claims?

That’s the problem, see? In the end, it’s easier to have an established dogma, with creeds, than to have new prophets. Yet in Revelation 11, we’re told that two prophets will be called to minister to the Jews in Jerusalem in the last days; so it’s hard to argue that no prophets will be called in our day. These two could be two ancient prophets like Enoch and Elijah—or they could be new prophets. But to say no prophets will arise appears to be unscriptural.

15

Are Jehovah's Witnesses Damned?

by Cold Steel in

this is really aimed at evangelicals and people of other religions, especially those who left the jws and are now happily engaged in other christian faiths.

in short, based upon your present religious views, are jehovah's witnesses damned to an eternal hell for their beliefs?.

if you're an atheist or agnostic, this question ain't for you.

Cold Steel

I don't know that 90 percent of this board are atheists/agnostics, but in a way it clears up a lot of questions for them. It also should raise some questions, but that's a question for another time.

I just bought the entire set of HBO's series THE BIG LOVE. I thought it would be more religious, but I'm almost through Season 1 and all it is is a soap opera, and a bad one at that. Anyway, the pastor of my old non-demoninational church (years ago) preached that Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists were on a greased slide to hell. He said they worshiped a "different Jesus" and becaquse of that they could never accept the one true Jesus who could save them from Hell and gain them entrance to Heaven. It made me wonder just how many false and true Jesuses there are running around the universe is beyond me, but in the past 20 years or so I've been hearing more from evangelicals and Pentacostals about salvation being denied to members of "cults." Meanwhile, Catholics don't particularly hold out much hope for Protestants. They believe the "man of sin" that must come before the return of Jesus is personified in Protestantism...and they aren't too crazy about the Eastern Orthodox and vice versa.

As much as I disagree with the Jehovah's Witnesses, I wonder how much of a leeway there is for salvation if there is a God. The JWs don't hold out much in the way of salvation for anyone besides themselves.

So all this got me to thinking how God views JWs from the points of view of those who left the WTS for another Christian denomination or those who may not have ever been JWs, but who might think of them as a cult. (After all, is there any salvation for cult members if they don't accept the true Jesus in this life?

So if you're a Christian and not a JW, what do you think? Do JWs have to accept a more biblical Jesus to be saved?

15

Are Jehovah's Witnesses Damned?

by Cold Steel in

this is really aimed at evangelicals and people of other religions, especially those who left the jws and are now happily engaged in other christian faiths.

in short, based upon your present religious views, are jehovah's witnesses damned to an eternal hell for their beliefs?.

if you're an atheist or agnostic, this question ain't for you.

Cold Steel

This is really aimed at evangelicals and people of other religions, especially those who left the JWs and are now happily engaged in other Christian faiths. In short, based upon your present religious views, are Jehovah's Witnesses damned to an eternal Hell for their beliefs?

If you're an atheist or agnostic, this question ain't for you. It's only for those who have migrated from "The Truth" to other religious views.

Or...from outsiders who just drop by this site. If you've never been a JW, do you think they are in danger of eternal torment? Or do you think their faith in Christ will carry them through?

22

Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe in their own doctrine?

by God_Delusion in

hi guys,.

do you think the majority of jehovah's witnesses actually believe in their own doctrine?

do they honestly believe that the end is nigh?.

Cold Steel

How things have changed! Back in the 70s, many JWs really knew their scriptures and could put up a fairly decent debate without referring to JW publicatioins. That's not to say they could justify their doctrines very well, but at least they knew the necessary scriptures to argue their positions. Their scriptures were usually well worn and verses underlined in varying colors. If challenged, they could cite the requisite scripture passages, most of the time without cheat sheets.

Now they're totally different. They're more likely now to just leave you with a publication and move on. Oh, and several gave me copies of their Bible, which was green and had thin pages. I don't think they pass out Bibles anymore, do they?

Oh, and maybe someone can answer this question: When JWs going door to door give you publications and booklets, who pays for them? Does the church pay for them or do the people passing them out pick up the cost?

Would they sell you a Bible?

22

Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe in their own doctrine?

by God_Delusion in

hi guys,.

do you think the majority of jehovah's witnesses actually believe in their own doctrine?

do they honestly believe that the end is nigh?.

Cold Steel

Sure. Why would they go through the trouble if they didn't?

The overwhelming number of JWs I've known or corresponded with, for example, have NO IDEA what Armageddon is all about. They believe what their leaders tell them. If they ever showed up at an eschatology symposium made up of other Christians of different stripes, they'd be like fish out of water. Don't get me wrong...not everyone believes the same about Armageddon, but the JWs are so far out in left field that they would be completely clueless.

But misunderstanding prophecy and scripture only means that they'll end up expecting one thing and getting another, which they ought to be used to by now. They never learn from their mistakes. You can fool them over and over again by just changing what they read in Watchtower. People keep big binders just full of past issues of Watchtowers. Then when someone has a question, they know right where to go and what issues to grab for the answer. They never learn.

10

Can the Watchtower Prove Their Core "Truths" to Be "True"???

by Anne Marie 1925 in

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romans 8: 38-39 nwt.

so can the watchtower prove any of their unorthodox core teachings to be true according to the word of god?

Cold Steel

There are some doctrines the JWs just close their eyes to. First and foremost is the foundational belief that when you die, you cease to exist. Even though the early Christians talk of being in or out of the body (they cannot tell), and even though they refer to their bodies as "tabernacles." And Paul says to die and be with Christ is what he wants, but to "abide in the flesh" is more needful to the flock. There's even a reference to a spirit putting off a body like a body puts off a garment. Now while all of this is going on, the JWs are busily finding that scripture in Ecclessiastes that says there is no wisdom in the grave. But the author of the book (King Solomon) was 1) not a prophet; 2) had lived a sinful life whereby he had taken heathen wives who induced him to build heathen altars to their gods instead of to Jehovah. Also, 3) Solomon was a philosophical writer and not an eschatalogical one.

In college, we covered the whole spirit v. breath issue as it pertained to the Bible. We looked at all the words and the contextual uses of each. We then looked at various passages of scripture where these words were used and picked the correct contextual word for each. The professor forced us to begin the project without any "horse in the race" and the whole thing took several days. Ultimately, though, the words, meaning, contexts, etc., forced us to conclude that it just didn't make sense to use "breath" and "wind" in many of those scriptures.

It became self evident that the scriptures really did indicate that yes, man has a spirit. It wasn't just a heathen doctrine that worked it's way into the scriptures.

125

A question for Athiests

by EndofMysteries in

i really do not understand how any can be athiests from thinking real hard about it.

how can you think everything on this earth just happened?.

from my understanding, to be athiest, this is pretty much how it goes.

Cold Steel

All the gospels were written down anonymously AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem. Try again. I mean, seriously, name ONE prophecy in the Bible that has come true where we can prove the prophecy was written BEFORE the event. Just one.

Okay, Isaiah 52-53:

The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. … Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Every single element of this prophecy was fulfilled in the gospels of Jesus Christ. Not only was Jesus rejected by his people, he paid for their transgressions as an offering for sin. He “made his grave with the wicked” in that he died between the two thieves; and “with the rich in his death,” being buried in the tomb of a wealthy man.

For a more modern prophecy: Isaiah 11:11-12

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Ha math, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

The first time the Jews were gathered to Jerusalem was in the days of the Babylonian conquest. But there was no “second time” that they were recovered except in 1947, when Israel was established as a nation. Since the mid-1800s, Judah has been gathered to its ancestral homelands. Zechariah said that in the last days Jerusalem would be a “burdensome stone” for all nations. In fact, he wrote: “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

During the battle of Armageddon, this will be more profoundly appreciated. Even so, this is the first time in history when the people “round about” Jerusalem would be gathered against it. This happened in 1948 and in 1968, and both times Israel creamed those nations when many thought it would be destroyed. The Lord prophesies:

“And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.”

Even though this is an Old Testament writing, the reference to the nations “round about” Jerusalem being Israel’s mortal enemies and that they would ultimately gather in the valley of Armageddon. Also, that they shall “look upon me whom they have pierced.” This is a clear messianic reference to Jesus being “pierced” as well as those referring to the “only son” and the “firstborn.”

These are all self-evident prophecies written well before their fulfillment. There are many other prophecies relating to the future that are equally intriging. As for the Christians fleeing to Pella, it's well documented. You can find it on the Internet. Add to that all the traditions of Christians surviving the Jerusalem assault.